May 2004 – Rapid City, South Dakota

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Ramkota Hotel
111 North LaCrosse Street
Rapid City, SD 57701

Meeting Minutes

May 13th

8:10 AM

Martin Reyes called the meeting to order and welcomed everyone to Rapid City. Jed Jensen read the minutes and they were approved as read. Jerry Endres provided the Treasure report. Jerry mentioned that TXU has 3 BE 1350 draglines for sale as well as cable and substations.

Martin Reyes announced future meeting sites:

Nov 17 – 19 2004 Reno, Nevada held at the Silver Legacy

May 8 – 10 2005 Calgary, Alberta held at the Sheraton

Nov 16 – 18 2005 Denver, Colorado held at the Renaissance

Group Discussion

8:30 AM

Broke into 6 groups to discuss:


Problems and Solutions

Innovations/New Technology

Agenda items for next meeting

Technical Presentations

May 13

9:50 AM

Soft Start for MG-Set – Jon Vendela, Spring Creek Coal and Rick Scherer, Kennecott Energy

10:47 AM

Gearless Drag/Hoist Drum System – Michael Onsager, Bucyrus International

Spousal support award presented to Don Patterson of DCS presented the spousal support award to Teri Marnell

11:45 AM

Adjourn for Lunch

1:09 PM

Panel Dealing with Excavator Electrical Concerns-Rob Marnell, Bob Davis, Rich Hall, Gary Sorenson and Mike Casson


1. Multiple Processor Failures
Described Key Switch Failures on 5/40 Processor (Cordero 108 machine)

2. PLC Programming & A/B Software Compatibility
Sorenson: Make sure that hardware and software are compatible) Panelview vs. Panelview E.)
Davis: Often communication issues arise before any other issues.

3. Dragline Motor and Generator Power Loop
Marnell: Swing Loops current unbalance Alarm; Broken Coupling Bolts

4. Neutral Adjustment – A/C as accurate as PVN?
Casson: A/C is as good as PVN and also somewhat safer.
Hall: A/C finds symmetrical neutral – OK for Forward/reverse – single direction machines can
be better set.

5. Would Laser Alignment be more accurate than feeler gauges on MG sets?
Casson: not necessarily, depends on circumstances.

6. What is the physical process by which brushes get glued to the brush box?
Hall: T416 brushes – resin will come out with heat and glue to box.

7. What electrically happens when brush is glued?
Hall: brush will not run on the comm. and a flashover will result.

8. What is the tolerance between the brush and box?
Hall: +0 on thickness and -.004 in direction of rotation; width +0 to -.015

9. Distance between brush box and comm.?
Hall: Speced. By motor manufacturer – GE .070” – .090”

10. Brush Pigtails – Story of the QD

Hall: Discussed QD’s, the hows and whys.

11. Sleeving on pigtails of brushes.
Hall: There are different types of insulating materials.

12. A/B PLC Hardware = Equipment Types compared
Davis: Compared SLC and PLC with MicroLogix

13. Marnell: showed pictures of a CT that had an open secondary – melted.

14. Q: Talked about c/o of brushes and seating them in (blower)
Hall: use pre-radiused brushes, shouldn’t need to seat. If only changing one brush. 100%
leading to trailing edge & 80% overall seating is acceptable.

15. How about light loading of new brushes?
Hall: Low voltage load better than light load.

16. What is the recommendation for cold starting of MG sets?
Marnell: GE instruction book has a paragraph that describes it.
Steve Baade: Suggests heat on the pedestal oil. 8 hours or so of downtime, either roll it or fill
reservoir or add some oil prior to starting.
Hall: Oil must be liquid, (heat pedestals); waste of time to pour it in on tip of bearings. Oil only
counts on inside diameter of bearing.

17. Discussion of generator field overcurrent relay trip.
Marnell: Found sing MG set slowing down when demand put on swing motors. Cause: B.O.
vacuum contactor.

18. PLC Rack – 24v Power Supply – 3 DC cards failed internally.
Marnell: found a 24v propel alarm tied into power supply wires had rubbed and were

19. PLC Rack – Continual Self-Check
Marnell: 120v output triac that drove a sonalert – shorted triac – denergized – started
sequence over and over.

20. R. Scherer: How do OEMs size a Sync Motor on a dragline MG set?
Marnell: will as OEM (Horvath or Baade) to answer tomorrow.

21. What is the magic number for scan time before it affects operation of PLC on an excavator?
Sorenson: 100 msec on PLC is good, has seen networks go as slow as 250 msec.

22. How do you test communication speeds?
Sorenson: Send signals between processors (using real time clock) and read out actual time
it take for signal to travel.

23. Triac Outputs
Davis: has seen where people have tried to switch DC with triacs…doesn’t work.

3:28 PM

Mine Flood Warning Systems-CFR 780 – Ted Lapis, Automation Electronics

4:10 PM

Meeting adjourned for the day

Friday May 14

08:05 AM

Meeting called to Order

Summary of group discussions held on Thursday

9:10 AM

Commutator Rebuild on Motors and Generators – Laura Williams and Shawn Lyke, ICC International

10:25 AM

Motor Protection – Dennis Carrol, Kip Larson Symcom

11:00 AM

Electrical Code Testing – Steve Arne, Arne Electro-Tech.

11:47 AM

Closing remarks

Meeting adjourned

Topic Discussed

WMEA 2004 Soft-Start On A Dragline

Group Discussions

Group 1

Group 2

Group 3

Group 4

Group 1 Discussion


Safety: Jon Vendella at Spring Creek Coal stated that they have passed a Rio Tinto safety audit better than anyone in North America so far.

Al Furness with Bingham Canyon has gone 2 million man hours without a lost time accident.

Craig Russell of Decker coal stated that they have gone 400 days without a reportable accident.

Aaron Spielman from Cordero Rojo Mine talked about the Take 5 program at Cordero.

Jon Vendella talked about the simulator that Kennecott Energy Corporation purchased. Currently using a module for haul truck operators with plans to extend use to other pieces of equipment.

Al Furness talked about the SMAT audits they use to ensure that everyone is working safely. Supervisors are required to do two per week. Also talked about the lock boxes they use. Box is set in front of machine lock has to be applied before accessing machine.

Cordero uses a lockout board set outside of draglines during major outages. Used to lock out particular motions on machine. Also talked about the work permits they use when working with contractors.

Don Paterson of DCS stated that in Australia, the air valves to brakes are also locked out on machine for further eliminate stored energy causing machine movement.

Al Furness talked about problems they were having complying with safety standards to install guarding where needed but at the same time being able to provide adequate guarding.

Pete Miller from P&H asked about having an outside resource come in and do audits for IEEE standards. This would help with maintaining proper clearances and required PPE for working around electrical equipment.

Tom Claytor-GE- is thinking that opening air breakers will eventually require operator to wear Nomex clothing and have a standby person there for rescue.

Al Furness talked about an incident at Colowyo where a breaker blew up due to dirt. It was determined that proper maintenance of the breaker would have prevented the incident.

Craig Russell – Decker- discussed purchasing buying cheaper devices that what was ordered to save money and the need for electrical personnel to verify items purchased are not substituted.

Tom Claytor –GE- talked about a video produced by Gould showing breakers failing. Felt it would be something all should see.

Al Furness discussed the possibility of older properties not having systems electrically safe due to expansion of the years. Breaker interrupting rating…etc.

New technology and innovations:

Jon Vendella talked about the plc upgrade they did for a 2300 machine. Went very well and they are seeing increased productivity gains due to field control.

Travis Hurm –Cordero- stated that they have started installing led’s in place of incandescents in those areas that are hard to access. There are additional costs up front but eliminates frequents re-lamping.

Don Patterson-DCS- stated that Jon Tucker-Alcoa- has used wire technology to gather information from machines to the office.

Aaron –Cordero Rojo- talked about the WBM (boom monitoring) system they have on their draglines. Gives instant feedback to operators and has lowered boom repairs.

Dave Traverso –Cordero Rojo- talked about remote camera uplinks on draglines. Don Paterson-DCS- stated that John Tucker –Alcoa- does this also.

Future Topics

Lew Brown –GE- asked if there was interest in having them do a presentation on medium voltage technology and evolution.

Al Furness –KUCC- asked about the boom monitoring system at Cordero Rojo

Back To Group Discussion List Top of Page

Group 2 Discussion


Rick Scherer of KEC shared two incidents that happened at KEC.

1. Wire rope was being removed from the spool when a bystanders finger was smashed as a result of the rope coming lose and not being wound in a “typical” method.

2. A contracted cleaner was nearly crushed when he was trapped between a closing door on a vacuum truck. This involved two people that where either new or working on a new task.

Rick from Black Thunder talked about the fall prevention program that Thunder is currently undergoing. This program was similar to those that had been presented at groups like this.

John Barrant from P&H talked about improvements in P&H control systems to resolve issues when the reference signal is lost. He reviewed that without a reference signal to break the bucket will coast for quite some time. This is currently being tested and will be released to the public after testing.

Rick Scherer – KEC- Rick asked the group for feedback concerning Rio Tinto’s (KEC’s parent company) safety standard to limit access to MCCs and switch gear. Several comments where made about concerns with the NEC and negative safety implications from this.

Mark – Helwig – Noted that Helwig has new covers available for most all applications that do not have bolts or other parts that could be dropped into rotating apparatus inadvertently.

Mark Arckmond Commutator mentioned that they are currently use 125 or 150 percent of rated speed as the standard for testing based on motor size. While this was available before it was as a special requests.

John – P&H – is currently developing new operator assist technology.

Mark – Helwig – Mark mentioned that he as well as Helwig is committed to understanding and finding a resolution to the cold weather stripping issues seen by many users in the PRB.

Rick – Thunder Basin Coal – 8750 soft start utilized in South American ARC mine would be a good solution to coal weather issues with bearing wiping. Rick Scherer noted the presentation (to be presented at this meeting) by KEC on their soft start system and effects on bearing life would need to be measured.

For future presentations we would like to see:

Impact on limits and control systems due to P and H move to standardize control systems and hardware.

MSHA forum at the next Denver meeting.

KEC handheld data collection and impact on maintenance programs.

Issues panel breakout separated by equipment and manufacture. IE PH shoves, BE draglines.

Back To Group Discussion List Top of Page

Group 3 Discussion


Safety-Kennecott has purchased a simulator, They use this for there trucks ,and plan on. other equipment.

At Coteau they have safe start program, they use tapes to make everyone more aware.

Kennecott is using a Takes 5 program to make them more aware and Gary Sorensen did the Takes 5 said it was good but time consuming. It does help New Employees be more aware of their surroundings,


Motor running well all of sudden began dusting brushes. Tried lots of different things, brushes, further research changed out an air compressor the vent

Innovations/New Technology

B.I has a new Midas program used with visual aides to store data for investigation .

STARTCO has some new software for ground fault system, you may check with them for more information.

Falkirk mine is using radio control from some pump systems

Future Topics

Future of Mining -Wyoming mining Associated

Mercury Issues and Mining

Remote reporting and. unified system.’ Can we set. a standard and who sets it.?”

Back To Group Discussion List Top of Page

Group 4 Discussion

Jerry Endres from TXU spoke of efforts to get MSHA approval for defeating the ground monitor circuit in the substation feeding a dragline during boom lowering and raising operations.

The concern is that the ground monitor may trip during the process causing the boom to be damaged.

His mine has petitioned MSHA for a variance to allow them to defeat this protection function during the process, and expects it to be approved by MSHA soon.

Rob Marnell from DCS discussed the changing requirements for vendors to work on customer mine sites. Job Hazard Analysis forms are required before beginning work which outline the task to be completed, the hazards involved with the tasks, and the specific steps to be taken to minimize the exposure to these hazards.

Some mine sites are requiring vendors to perform the electrical inspections on their hand tools before entering the mine site. The mine has performed this service in the past, but is no requiring the vendor to conduct their own inspections. This means the vendors will be required to have a MSHA qualified electrician conduct this test.

Some vendors already have this electrical qualification, Steve Baade and Rob Marnell, both vendors, indicated that they have the MSHA qualification.

Doug Grendahl from Kennecott Energy added that there is an issue with HVAC service personnel. If a unit is to be serviced in the shop or office facility, no MSHA qualification is required. However, if a unit on a dragline or shovel is to be serviced, the qualification will be necessary, or the service person will have to work under the direct supervision of a qualified electrician.

Also, permission to deviate from the requirement to have the vendor, not the mine electricians perform the hand tool tests will have to come from the mine manager.

John Ozaltin from Carbone offered to make a presentation on new technology in carbon brush and brush holder technology. He also has information on a hot change procedure for changing brushes on operation equipment.

Steve Baade from GE discussed the changing nature of the joint venture with Toshiba. The Toshiba side of the group is becoming the project integrator, allowing a wider range of third party equipment to be applied to new machines. For instance, an Allen Bradley PLC is being applied on a new dragline installation instead of a GE unit. The system integrator can choose from six different transformer manufacturers for isolation transformers. They are no longer tied to GE only equipment.

Roger Lorenz from Argo Discussed the storage of electrical components on warehouse shelves. He has found that some customers are receiving electronic component cards and removing them from their static protective wrapping before putting them on the warehouse shelves. He would like everyone to remember that the anti static wrapping should stay on the items until they are placed in service.

He also discussed a new program to take over 100% of the customer inventory of spare electronic parts, and maintain them through the Argo operation. This will include on site parts storage, and the ability to ship from an Argo warehouse location, or even drop shipping from a manufacturers facility. The parts can be shipped by overnight express.

Ken McCarthy from Kiewit Mining Group thought a presentation on the top 20 MSHA citations would be interesting. This might give us an opportunity to share with each other what MSHA inspectors are looking for.

Jerry Endres from TXU spoke of a citation he received on a control power transformer. The unit was not fused on the primary, and only on one leg of the secondary. This is the configuration of the equipment as it was originally designed and shipped by the manufacturer. Jerry felt that his mine site was at risk because there are numerous installations of this type on his site.

Doug Grendahl spoke of an MSHA inspector who found a damaged drop cord in the shop facility with a do not operate tag attached. The inspector was not satisfied with this level of tag out and suggested the plug be cut from the cord, or a lock out device be used to cover the plug to ensure it is not used before it is repaired. The tag was not sufficient in the inspectors opinion. Doug ordered some lock out devices to fulfill the requirement.

Mike Maliske from Coteau discussed an S+S violation his mine site received for a damaged trail cable jacket. Jerry Endres from TXU also has been cited for trail cable jacket damage. (not an S+S violation)

Jerry Endres from TXU discussed the increased level of electrical inspections. Some inspectors are approaching the mine electricians to ask them to demonstrate how substation protective relay settings are being determined, or what the ampacity of a given piece of trail cable is. He felt this is an increased level of inspection asking for engineering data.

Jeffery Duncan from Coteau spoke of MSHA inspectors requiring more information be kept on the maintenance and repair of circuit breakers.

Ken McCarthy from Kiewit Mining Group discussed a recent comment by MSHA that working under the dragline boom is considered working under a suspended load. This would include dozer work, and ground man activities. It was suggested that it may be that no work within the dragline radius of operation could be performed.

Ken also discussed work being performed on a dragline boom and mast in the lowered position. What suspended load consideration will MSHA be looking at. There is an MSHA letter out regarding dragline boom work in the lowered position.

Vivian Fadlevich of Consolidated Mine Service spoke of working to power wash dragline booms and masts in the raised and lowered positions and the hazards and regulations involved.

Steve Baade from GE spoke of some of the innovations on the new BNI dragline he recently visited in North Dakota. They are currently working on the revolving frame, the MG sets are on the machine, the motors are still in protected storage, swing case boring is being done, operator cab not yet mounted, electrical cable about 50 percent complete, the house is not yet complete.

The machine is scheduled to walk off the pad October 1. The machine is being built in a fashion to be able to expand it from a 4 hoist, 4 drag, 4 swing motor machine to a 5 hoist, 5 drag, and 6 swing motor configuration if the customers digging conditions change in the future. (Cool)


Event Details

Start date: 05/13/2004